Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Having Tom play Superman would be weird. Kara doesn't just look different. His Kara looks like Indigo. His Lara looks like Eliza Danvers. His Curtis Knox (who was pretty much Vandal Savage) looks like Jeremiah Danvers. Jimmy Olsen is suddenly black. Cat Grant, Lucy Lane and the General have new faces.

Despite being someone who obsessed over finding a solid explanation for why Jerry O'Connell and Robert Floyd both play Quinn Mallory without looking the same -- I just wouldn't worry about this. At all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I just think that it would be more fun to see him play something different. Tom is a great Clark/Superman, but I think he is more likely to appear on the show as something else. He has played that character already, and on a better show. I would love to see his Clark show up in the multiverse, but I don't think it would be as fulfilling to see him play the same character, but not. I want to see Tom, Erica and Allison together again, but not just playing vaguely similar versions of the characters that I spent a decade with. And by the end he owned that character in ways that he wouldn't here.

For Supergirl, why not let Tom flex his muscles and play something new? He could play a different type of hero, or even a villain. Maybe a love interest for Alex? A fun loving pilot with a sarcastic personality.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Hey, I'm not trying to sort out Tom Welling's career here, Informant! I just want a good Superman and Tom is available!

Sorry. I forgot I don't work on this show.

On a side note -- Brandon Routh was almost Superman in MAN OF STEEL. If they'd retained him, every supporting actor around him would have changed. I wonder how that would have felt.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Was he? I like Routh, but I thought he was the wrong choice for that role. But then, it was a thankless job since everything else about that movie was so horrible.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Tom would be good for something familiar that tricks us into believing something that's not true.  For instance, he could play a more true-to-the-comics version of the Phantom Zone inmate Nam-ek:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/namek.htm

He could start as this sympathetic character with Superman powers; a doctor focused on saving lives.  Then as we go on we discover he's more like a Nazi doctor who sacrifices all ethics to find cures.  They could even work in the dramatic transformation into the beast explaining that it was the prolonged yellow sun exposure that triggered the change (something he didn't account for on Krypton).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That could be interesting.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I just would like to see Smallville incorporated into the Arrowverse.  They could've easily added it into the montage of the other Earths (which made the original Flash TV show canon), but they didn't.  Since Tom-as-Superman probably won't show up on Arrow or Flash, I want him to appear on Supergirl.  It'd be weird, but it'd clinch the CW-DC universe as all being connected - including the great granddaddy of them all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I really can't see Tom playing the same Superman he did on SMALLVILLE. If he played Clark on Superman, I think it'd be a bit like how THE FLASH portrays an older Barry Allen (Henry) looking like the same actor who played Barry in the 1990s or how the SUPERMAN comics use Christopher Reeve's likeness now and then. I wouldn't mix the aesthetics of using Tom with the continuity of Tom's previous SUPERMAN series.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl getting five new cast members:

http://tvline.com/2016/06/08/supergirl- … -spoilers/

Characters Snapper Carr, Lena Luthor, Maggie Sawyer, a Cadmus "Doctor" (my guess being a female take on Dabney Donovan) and one more unknown called "brash, leading man".

Several of these characters could act as replacements to season one characters - Snapper replacing Jimmy or Winn; Maggie replacing Supergirl's sister; Donovan replacing Max Lord; Lena could even be worked as a more edgy Lucy Lane; and "brash, leading man" sounds something like a Cat Grant / Jimmy Olsen replacement.  And that doesn't mention that Cadmus has its own Martian Manhunter type character in Dubbliex (who could be anyone in disguise).  I see in this news some preparation for a large cast exodus.

On another note, it's pretty clear what the season theme could be - instead of Fort Rozz inmates, they'll be dealing with a different DNAlien from Cadmus each week.  But with the mention of National City and alien tech, it doesn't sound like they're sending Supergirl to Earth 1.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, not to mention the fact that Martian Manhunter could stay on board with a different actor.

I just wonder how they're going to deal with the mass cast exodus.  Are they going to kill the characters off, or are all of them going to move away?  Wouldn't it be easier to just move Kara and keep everyone else in National City?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I see a lot of people saying that Lena sounds like Tess Mercer. Nobody seems to remember that Tess was Lena in the end (Lutessa Lena Luthor).

They really want Calista back, but she will probably not be in every episode. One of thw regulars is probably going to pick up the slack from her character. I would expect Chyler to take a smaller role too, since she has a family.

The other three are recurring, so I don't think they're filling any holes necessarily.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think it is CRAZY premature to start saying that anyone other than Calista Flockhart is going to be on the show less. There have been no announcements whatsoever for the rest and three of these new hires are recurring, not regular. I'm not saying it won't happen because we don't know, but talking about it like it's a certainty as opposed to a theory is too far. I know Informant WANTS to see less of Chyler Leigh, but that's a different discussion. ;-)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, Supergirl has cast their Superman. Tyler Hoechlin (Teen Wolf, The Road to Perdition) will play Supes on the show.

He's 28. Which doesn't really work for me. Kara has been on Earth for something like 12 years, right? And Superman was already active when she was found. I know that he doesn't age like everyone else, but still... 28 is a bit young to be playing someone who should be more like 35 or 40. I like the actor just fine, but it seems like a case of casting an actor, rather than casting a character.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Considering what TF said about Canadian actors, I'm surprised they hired an American.  But he does look like Superman to me in the pics I've seen.  And even a little like Henry Cavill.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The CW has decided to run each of their four superhero shows on their own night, pairing none of the shows with each other.

Monday - Supergirl
Tuesday - Flash
Wednesday - Arrow
Thursday - Legends of Tomorrow

I'm sure they'll use this to make an entire week of programming for sweeps, either with a multi-part crossover or some sort of "theme" for each episode.  I think it's a bit interesting that they aren't pairing the shows with anything, but I guess they're hoping that those shows will help newer programming (like Frequency) find an audience.  And they're using their weakest show (LoT) pair with one of their bigger shows (Supernatural).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/16537 … ration.htm

Facinelli (Maxwell Lord) and Brooks (Jimmy) are promoting Season 2, so I take it they haven't left the series.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Grant Gustin tweeted out the Flash season 3 opener's title, Flashpoint. No mention of whether it will affect the other series. Also, he mentioned they'd be doing it their own way, not that the Arrow-verse lends itself to a direct adaptation.

318 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-06-20 15:16:32)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Flash is the first one back in the Fall.  Then Arrow.  Then Supergirl.  Then each Flash and Arrow get a second episode before Legends premieres.

So hypothetically, they could do a "Dark Arrowverse" episode for Flash and Arrow, let Supergirl have an episode in her own universe, and wrap up the Flashpoint stuff in episode 2 of Flash before Legends even premieres.  It'd be pretty cool to have an episode of Arrow that exists in a dark timeline before getting back to business with the second episode, although I wonder if they'd be able to explain that away to people who don't watch Flash.

It'd be a way of having their cake without necessarily affecting all four of their shows.  Just speculating.

They could also hypothetically fix everything in episode one and not affect any other show.  Either way, I think it'd be a mistake for there to be no ripples on Arrow if things aren't resolved in the Flash premiere.  Why even bother with having a shared universe if something this big doesn't affect the other show(s)?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

So, about last night's Arrow episode, I have a question.

The character that Madison McLaughlin plays has been spoken of as this big deal by the producers. There was this whole mystery surrounding her and the producers said that no show had ever done anything like this before.

Having seen her on the show, I have no idea what they were talking about. What was so unheard of? I'm confused.

Apparently she's coming back to play a character named Artemis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigress_( … ng_Justice

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

We'll see how that works out. I like the actress. Hopefully she will have good scripts to work with.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I see where they've leaked the episode title for the Supergirl premiere - "The Adventures of Supergirl".  It seemed a little too generic until I remembered a story Peter David wrote in the comics.

Who was in the rocket?  Maybe it was Kara - the young version of Kara we saw in all of the flashbacks last season.  It would be the best way the television series could emulate the reaction to David's introduction of a character that shouldn't be possible.

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/ilovecomiccovers/Supergirlv475-SupergirlManyHappyReturnsTPB.jpg

Featuring the debut of the new art team of Ed Benes & Alex Lei, and an all-new direction for Supergirl! With her personal journeys ended, ...Linda Danvers can now claim to be the one and only Supergirl, right? Wrong! When a spacecraft crashes down outside Leesburg, Supergirl races over to the destroyed craft to look for survivors, and finds...Supergirl?!? Linda Danvers becomes immersed in a mystery that will shake her very identity and existence.

http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.com/ … meets.html

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Could be interesting. I'm curious to see how the show changes on the CW. Someone made a comment about the comic book-y stories that they couldn't tell on CBS. How much was the network pushing the writing of the show? Were they the ones demanding that Kara essentially be Clark in a skirt?

Maybe it's too much to hope for, but it would be nice if the show lived up to its potential.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Judging by the stories done on CBS, I'm guessing the elements frowned upon were fantasy science elements like time travel, magic and parallel universes (which they would have managed to talk CBS into with Flash).  Throwing off those constraints could open things up to characters like Mr. Mxyzptlk, the Legion and the demon Blaze (who has connections to Shazam and could bring up an interesting appearance by Mary Marvel - the character DC ripped off to create Supergirl in the first place).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Katie Cassidy has been signed as a series regular across all three (possibly four) shows, just like Wentworth Miller and John Barrowman. I guess the fan backlash was more than they expected. The Flash and Legends could throw her in easily enough, but how will she appear on Arrow? Flashbacks?

Also, they recently released an image of Wally as Kid Flash... gotta say, I'm still not a big fan of this character. He hasn't blended into the show very well at all.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'd love it if most of the minor characters in these shows had contracts like this.  Felicity works well with the others.  So does Cisco.  These characters should be floating around, offering to help whenever they can.  The main guys should be on their own shows and mix up for crossovers, but everyone else should be fluid.  I think it's such a cool idea.

I'm guessing Flashpoint resurrects both Cold and Laurel.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Some photos of the new Superman from the first day of filming:

http://www.justjared.com/2016/07/29/tyl … supergirl/

Looks a lot better in those pics than that initial press release photo.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm really not liking this Superman so far. I like the actor well enough, but he is wrong for this role. The costume looks pretty bad too. The cape is just wrong.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I didn't see the need for Superman on the show to be honest.  I think having a series and film franchise operating at the same time yet separate is pretty strange.  One at a time please.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Having Superman text Kara or only relay messages through intermediaries and never being at home or being seen at a distance or being knocked unconscious was getting pretty ridiculous. Eventually, the excuses for avoiding an on camera presence would have been impossible. It was inevitable that Superman would need to be shown onscreen.

The world at large had no issue with the Tim Burton BATMAN films contradicting the BATMAN animated series while reruns of the 60s BATMAN show aired daily in syndication while 40s era BATMAN serials were being re-released.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, my fear with Superman being on the show is the eventual forcing of him to show up in the Arrowverse.  Legends of Tomorrow made a reference to Superman existing, but as far as we know, he doesn't exist on Earth-1.  If he does....then where is he?  Where has he been?  And would Superman being an active part of the Arrowverse change things too much?

If it was me, I would've moved Kara to Earth-1 (somehow) and have her be the only Kryptonian on Earth.  Maybe Krypton never blew up on Earth-1 so Kal-El and Kara are just hanging out there.  Or maybe Krypton never existed. 

You eliminate "why doesn't Clark show up?" by removing Clark from the equation.  But if Kara is going to stay in National City on Earth-Kara, then yeah, they needed to bring him on the show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Having run out of X-Files episodes to rewatch, I decided to go back to the first season of Arrow and see if I could remember what I saw in the show back then. I was actually a little sad to watch the Pilot, because it was really good. There were strong characters. There was a direct mission. The fights were really well done. Most importantly, the people making it seemed to be taking it seriously. No characters baby-talking or whining their way through dialogue, which was also nice.

The thing is that in order to enjoy the show, I have to ignore everything that happened after season 2. I liked Tatsu, but I have to forget that she existed, or else the promise of the island is an empty waste of time. They really, really messed up the five year arc of Oliver on the island. Instead of being like a brutal version of Lost, they meandered and dilly-dallied their way through it, to the point where part of me was wondering why Oliver was so upset about it in the first episode.

I hope that this new season can reset the series and get back to what worked. But no matter what happens, seasons 3 and 4 have to be forgotten.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Rumour has it that Flashpoint will merge the SUPERGIRL and ARROW/FLASH into a single continuity.

I think that sounds much tidier than having Supergirl cast into the ARROWverse? But it's potentially very confusing and needs to be handled in a careful fashion akin to FRINGE's soft touch in its fourth season as opposed to how unrecognizable SLIDERS became by changing locations.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Interesting.  That makes some sense.  I guess it could hypothetically explain why things look different - maybe National City in the Arrowverse is more like Vancouver (climate/topography-wise) than Los Angeles.  I wonder if they'll even reference it.

The thing is....Barry said that none of the people he knew existed in Kara's world.  So when they merge, how would that work?  If Kara and Company cross over as-is, would the population of the Earth double?  Would some people merge?  If so, are we going to have billions of Mallorys?

I guess that means Clark is crossing over too.  Interesting.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, from a comics perspective, the original Flashpoint was used to merge the Wildstorm characters into the DC Universe (those characters having never existed in the DCU).  There was no connection to Barry's mother at all; it was instead a third party named Pandora taking advantage of the temporal chaos Barry caused and using it create a world she wanted.

There's a hint in the comics that the ultimate puppet master of the Flashpoint changes will be the Legion of Super Heroes villain Time Trapper; and the Trapper has often concentrated on Superman because he was the direct inspiration for the Legion.  If the Trapper is manipulating things in the Arrowverse, then maybe he believes the merger will somehow cause Superman problems.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I've fallen behind my DC REBIRTH reading -- I usually don't read comics until a massive event has ended an era the way I recently read all the NEW 52 comics. So, correct me if I'm wrong -- but wasn't the whole point of DC UNIVERSE REBIRTH that Dr. Manhattan from WATCHMEN is the villain who merged the DC and Wildstorm universes?

Also, and correct me again, but wasn't the crazed timeline of FLASHPOINT the result of the temporal shockwave caused by Barry altering time by saving his mother? The world that resulted wasn't the result of Barry saving his mother, but I don't remember it being Pandora's doing either: she observes Barry stopping himself and allows it; she also, in DC UNIVERSE REBIRTH, declares Dr. Manhattan to be a cold, hateful monstrosity who has stolen hope, joy and love from the DC Universe.

Again, your degrees in comicology vastly dwarf mine, so maybe I missed an issue?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

The thing is....Barry said that none of the people he knew existed in Kara's world.  So when they merge, how would that work?  If Kara and Company cross over as-is, would the population of the Earth double?  Would some people merge?  If so, are we going to have billions of Mallorys?

If we really had to address it, I guess they could steal an idea from JLA/AVENGERS where the DC heroes observe that the Marvel Universe Earth is physically smaller than DC's Earth (which has lots of additional, fictional cities) and so the merged Earth has a larger size and a larger population. I imagine that people would either exist with altered histories from the merging or be erased.

There's a neat issue of ASTRO CITY where a man is constantly dreaming of a woman he never knew; a phantom-like superhero reveals to him that there was one of those Crisis-type events and this poor man's wife was erased from existence, and the hero offers to either erase memories of the woman entirely or leave the man the way he is. The man prefers to remember and live with the loss.

Honestly, this problem is bugging ME, too, on a personal level.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I just don't get how altering one world's timeline ends up merging it with a whole other universe. In fact, I thought it would be interesting if Earth 2 was unaltered, allowing Harry and Jessie to remember the original timeline.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's hardly an exact science. Timelines get merged for corporate and editorial reasons, not because it makes sense. The Crisis storyline where Earth 1 and Earth 2 were merged wasn't done to make a good story; it was DC's attempt to follow Marvel's lead in only having a single timeline. If SUPERGIRL's continuity is combined with ARROW and THE FLASH, it won't be the natural course of events (how could it be?). It'll be in order to increase the cross-marketing opportunities, widen the CW superhero brand and expand their banner.

I think it would be a good move in that ARROW, THE FLASH, LEGENDS and SUPERGIRL belong together as they're made by the same teams? But it won't ever make logical sense, much in the same way resurrecting Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo would be absurd and illogical.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I get that, but it should at least have some sort of internal logic. Otherwise, why not just have Barry travel back to Supergirl's Earth when the need arises? They incorporated Killer Frost easily enough, for multiple episodes.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, it makes logistical sense for Kara to be in the Arrowverse.  We know guys like Cold and Merlyn and Laurel are going to be on all four shows, and those guys can't be jumping around the multiverse.  So she has to come over.

And if she's coming, her side characters have to come.  If they don't, even if it's fun to explore alternate Arrowverse versions of Winn and James and Cat, the whole plot of Supergirl is going to have to revolve around something she can't do (go home).  And even if she brings along everyone of relevance, there's still issues that are left unresolved.  What about Clark?  Does he come?  If Clark and Kara both go, is it fair to leave Earth-Kara essentially unguarded?

So merging it actually makes the most sense.  Kara doesn't have anywhere to go, and all relevant characters exist in the same universe.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I get that it makes sense for the writers and the network, but it still has to make sense within the story. They can't just have Kara show up at the next crossover event as though she's been there all along.

As for Clark... I wish they'd put him in the season premiere, just before Kara leaves that world, and they never ever go back to him. The pics of him in that costume are just not good. The cape looks like he made it out of a cheap pleather bean bag chair that he bought at Target. The wrong material, and the wrong length.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I get that it makes sense for the writers and the network, but it still has to make sense within the story. They can't just have Kara show up at the next crossover event as though she's been there all along.

I mean, I'm sure there'll be a reason.  It'll be technobabble BS, but it'll be there.

"When you changed history, you sent a shockwave through the entire multiverse.  Entire worlds were merged together.  Mathematically speaking, the two closest worlds to our Earth.  So any world you've been to, I assume."

"Oh hey Kara and Harry!"

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wait, I forget... did the original Harrison Wells die before or after Barry's mother? After, right? So the real Harry Prime should be alive, right?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

You're right.  The original Harrison Wells should still be alive.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I love how Informant concedes that merging universes is never going to be a logical event but then reiterates his need for a sensible explanation.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There were a lot of ways for it to fit with their stories. I think that trying to hold onto season 1's structure will be the mistake. The merging should be a crazy big event, or it should be a small personal event. But it shouldn't be a massive event that is shrugged off as no big deal.

Honestly, with a doorway between worlds already existing, they don't even need to bother merging them if they don't want to make a big deal out of it.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I think they need to merge so that Kara's "home" is in Earth 1.  Merging is the only way to accomplish that.  If it was just Kara crossing for crossovers,  that's one thing.  But if Merlyn and Laurel and Snart (and others, I assume) are also going to be on Supergirl, then it's easier to just have them all live in the same universe.

I imagine it only would really impact Supergirl, which you don't like anyway smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

If I were writing for SUPERGIRL, THE FLASH, LEGENDS OF TOMORROW and/or ARROW, I would desperately want to avoid the need to create a device to bring Supergirl into the ARROWverse reality every single time I wanted to do a crossover.

How many times can the Flash lose control of his speed and inadvertently stumble into Kara's world? How many reality-shifting mystical artifacts can ARROW contrive for Oliver to meet Kara? How much technobabble can LEGENDS contrive to bring about a dimensional nexus?

And the issue of the Flash being able to walk away from any consequence to Kara's world or Kara being able to do the same with the Flash's world risks eliminating dramatic tension and meaningful risk. I would seek to avoid all of the above by finding some way to cross over and make it permanent.

And the way I'd do it -- I'd do FLASHPOINT in THE FLASH episodes and, when reality is inevitably restored, I'd indicate that little changes have been made that only Barry notices (like Pied Piper suddenly being re-employed at STAR Labs after Barry revisited Season 1). There are newspaper stories of Superman and Supergirl; there's a CATCO banner in the background. Meanwhile on SUPERGIRL, a Big Belly Burger appears. Winn makes a vague reference to having once met his equal, someone named Felicity, at a hackathon. Cat grimly confesses to a one-night-stand with Oliver. Over on ARROW, the Martian Manhunter shows up in Oliver's flashbacks but Oliver never realized his strange friend was an alien.

And in THE FLASH, Barry gets a call from Supergirl and is astonished; he asks how she came to this universe and Kara has no idea what he's referring to; she remembers their first adventure but has no memory of how they used to inhabit separate universes and some crisis forces Barry to just accept it. When Supergirl meets Oliver, she's intimidated by his reputation as a ruthless killer and Oliver dismisses her as a spineless goody two shoes.

History has merged, but the present is mostly the same. Only Barry notices, and the show acts like Supergirl and Superman have always been around.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

You could do that... but you would be sacrificing any trust that you had established between yourself and the audience. At that point, no story matters as much as the whims of the writer.

Remember when Damien's totem was shattered into pieces in one episode, and then magically reappeared later just because the writers were lazy? It was not something that went over well with the audience. Laurel's death wasn't emotional, it was flat out rejected by a large number of audience members.

With shows like these, the writers have to establish a reality within the absurd world in which the story takes place. Barry going back in time changes the timeline, but unless that new timeline includes a huge, major catastrophe off screen, no amount of ripples will merge two universes. That is like saying that altering a cookie recipe will cause the bread in the cupboard to turn into cake. Yes, a writer can do that in their story and not offer an explanation... but most readers will probably put the book down at that point.

If they want to bring Kara to Earth 1, fine. But they need to earn it.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

*sigh*

Well, Slider_Quinn21 suggested that Barry's time travel paradox ripped open the walls of reality and drew Kara's Earth into Barry's Earth and the collision resulted in their realities being merged. We've already seen that time paradoxes, in Season 1, open rifts between realities. So, at the end of Season 2, reality became unstable -- a bit like -- so there's two jars of candy; jelly beans and chocolate! And Barry knocked over the jar of jelly beans and broke the jar, so he swept them all up and put them in with the chocolate to hold them and... and...

Anyway. I'd have all the heavy lifting happen in THE FLASH and have Season 2 of SUPERGIRL and LEGENDS and Season 5 of ARROW set in the merged reality, although the references to SUPERGIRL's stuff would be extremely low-key until the FLASHPOINT arc ends.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

We also need to keep in mind that there will probably be two new timelines here. The first in which Barry saves his mother and things go horribly wrong (even though this would probably be the original and proper timeline). The second when he allows his mother to die and time kinda-sorta goes back to normal.

Maybe saving Harrison Wells allows him to create an even bigger disaster than when the accelerator exploded. But it will have to be acknowledged on Supergirl since that is the show where it was explicitly stated that she existed in another universe where nobody that Barry knows exists.

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352 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-08-12 08:06:49)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Barry going back in time changes the timeline, but unless that new timeline includes a huge, major catastrophe off screen, no amount of ripples will merge two universes.

Well, if the show works upon a "branching" multiverse, then I think they could write it that way.  What if the branching event that causes Supergirl to live outside Barry's world happened after Reverse Flash did something?  For example, what if Reverse Flash decided to try and destroy another hero when he got the chance and used STAR Labs technology to either destroy Kara's ship or divert it from Earth, somehow?  So that's why Kara isn't on Earth-1?  And maybe that event either forced Clark to not come out of the shadows (maybe operating like Clark on Smallville), or Thawne was able to kill Clark as well.

To explain differences in Kara's Earth, you could also use this theory.  Maybe instead of going after Clark and/or Kara on Kara's Earth, maybe Thawne decided to take his anger out on STAR Labs and kill everyone there (maybe including Barry).  When Barry says that no one exists, it's all STAR Labs people - Cisco, Caitlin, and Wells.  So when Barry was searching for them, maybe he couldn't find them because they were dead.  Maybe the other heroes don't exist because this is a world where Superman exists so Oliver thought fighting crime with a bow and arrow seemed silly compared to that.  If Oliver doesn't become Arrow, then there's no Atom or Black Canary.

With Thawne defeated in the new timeline, none of that would happen and the universes "merge"

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Superman was already active when Kara landed (which makes the casting of Superman that much worse) so you'd need to alter Clark's history and Kara's both.

And I think Barry at least mentioned Laurel to Kara, so she doesn't exist either.

There is just a lot of wheels spinning here . The writers want to put a new wheel on this vehicle that's already traveling at full speed, so they need to be careful as they do it.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Superman was already active when Kara landed (which makes the casting of Superman that much worse) so you'd need to alter Clark's history and Kara's both.

According to the timeline, Barry's mom dies in 2000.  Kara showed up in 2003.  We don't know when Clark showed up, but there's a three year window in which Thawne could've changed things.

Barry mentions Black Canary not Laurel.  She doesn't recognize the names - doesn't mean Oliver and Laurel don't exist - it just means they aren't active superheroes (or active enough for Kara to have heard of them).  Later in the episode, Barry actually searches (presumably online) for Cisco/Caitlin/Wells and says there's nothing on them.  He presumes they don't exist, but maybe he didn't search well enough to find whether they didn't exist or if they were dead.  The line doesn't presume either way, so it's possible that Thawne killed them all and scrapped STAR Labs.

Branching point - Thawne goes back.  In both instances, he uses up his speed force and kills Barry's mom.

Timeline 1 (Earth 1) - Thawne uses STAR Labs technology (as Wells) to fire a kryptonite (which could exist) missile at Kara's pod.  And he either uses kryptonite to kill Superman, or Superman decides to stay hidden (due to what happened to Kara or something else).  The universe moves on as we know it.

Timeline 2 (Kara's Earth) - Thawne decides not to mess with the kryptonians, and he takes his revenge on the STAR Labs folks.  He kills Wells but doesn't assume his identity.  He also kills Cisco and Caitlin.  Maybe Barry too.  Superman shows up as we know, and Kara's ship lands 3 years later.  Superman showing up in 2003 could've changed Oliver's life enough to change his life in some way (he's inspired to be a better person, Waller doesn't need him because there's a freaking Superman around, etc).  No Green Arrow means no Atom and no Black Canary.  No Flash means no Firestorm. 

It technically fits.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Slider_Quinn21 is really onto something with the idea that the Reverse Flash's alterations to history resulted in the ARROWverse lacking Supergirl and Superman, but I think the idea of the Reverse Flash doing one thing in SUPERGIRL's continuity and something else in the ARROWverse is too complicated for a television show.

I think a simpler route might be preferable while still using Slider_Quinn21's ideas: specifically, SUPERGIRL is the original timeline without Thawne's interference or any changes in history wrought by Thawne and the Flash's battles across time. But when Thawne killed Nora Allen and assumed Harrison Wells' identity, he also used his knowledge of the future to (a) divert Kara's pod into the sun to kill her (b) depower Clark Kent and (c) also eliminate or interfere with the origin stories of any metahumans who might have interfered with his plans.

In addition, Thawne's drive to build the particle accelerator at an earlier point caused certain people to meet resulting in specific individuals being born -- Caitlin and Cisco -- whereas the original Harrison Wells built the particle accelerator much, much later in life (and Thawne stole his identity to build it "sooner"). That's why Caitlin and Cisco exist on Earth 2 (where Harry built the accelerator with the same drive as his Earth 1 impostor) but don't exist in SUPERGIRL's universe (where the real Wells is building the accelerator at a slower pace).

This would be a way to deepen Thawne's evil; he didn't just alter Barry's life into an existence where his father was in jail for his mother's murder -- he created a world without Superman and Supergirl. Meanwhile, the original timeline carries on as a separate, parallel track in SUPERGIRL (which is a timeline where Barry was much older when he became the Flash, so old he looked more like John Wesley Shipp than Grant Gustin).

When Eddie killed himself and erased Thawne's existence, everyone's memories of Thawne were still intact, Barry's mother was still dead, and the paradoxical nature of the timeline resulted in the black hole and the portals to Earth 2. And now Barry has gone back and stopped Thawne from changing history when the universe seemed to crack from Thawne's forcible removal from the relative present day -- which could mean that the FLASHPOINT reality we'll see in the Season 3 reality is a mixture of the post-erasure timeline (Cisco and Caitlin) along with the original timeline (Supergirl and Superman).

So maybe by the end of FLASHPOINT, the SUPERGIRL and ARROWverse timelines are restored into one, but some of the Thawne-created scar tissue (all the ARROWverse characters) remain intermixed with the present day SUPERGIRL timeline.

Actually, this may be more complicated than Slider_Quinn21's approach. How to distill it --

THAWNE: "This world isn't real, FLASH!"
BARRY: "This is the world we'd have if you'd never touched it -- "
THAWNE: "This deranged wonderland's a mismash of overlapping timelines! You think your parents were the only people I took out of the equation? I didn't just make you the Flash, I made you *my* Flash, I couldn't have any other influences on poor little Barry Allen, so desperate for a mentor. So I had to take away anyone who might have interfered -- a certain Kryptonian had to lose his powers, a little pod in space had to be diverted into the sun -- "
BARRY: "Kara -- there's no Kara on my world because you killed her -- "
THAWNE: "And there was no Cisco or Caitlin until I made them the same way I made you! If they're here, then this isn't the world without me, Flash, this is every bit the world I made except you've let it all go mad -- "

I dunno. It's a bit much. But while this unfolds on THE FLASH, I would have Winn over on SUPERGIRL inexplicably mention that he once met Felicity briefly, Cat would mention Oliver as a one night fling and in ARROW, the Martian Manhunter should show up in one of Oliver's flashbacks. Then FLASHPOINT ends and we realize the ARROW and SUPERGIRL episodes took place after the FLASHPOINT conclusion merged the timelines.

Oh, I love how Grant Gustin thinks that Barry would be head over heels in love with Kara Danvers while Melissa Benoist is of the opinion that Kara is too similar to Barry for there to be effective chemistry.  I think that the characters should have exactly the same viewpoints with Barry smitten with a Supergirl who thinks of him as a buddy.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's pretty much the Winn/Kara dynamic, isn't it?

Or it was. He might be gay now.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ha, I love this place.  We came up with our own elaborate backstory to explain a rumor that may or may not even happen.  And if it does happen, there's no way they're going to be as detailed as we've been.

You guys are awesome smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

But is this course of logic acceptable to Informant?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't even know anymore. I just need something to make this work for me. smile

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

I would keep in mind too what I pointed out at the beginning of the season; the Zoom plotline could be a take on the Garrick villain called The Rival.   In later presentations The Rival was presented as someone who looked like Jay.  I think that's probably where they're going with this, but I do think it was too soon to go back to that same idea..

http://www.superherohype.com/news/38064 … -the-rival

Once again, TF was ahead of the curve.